Okay. I have to sort of do this a bit wonky since parts of my reply are directed to each of you, and I don’t want to treat you like the same person or anything.
Phi: I am one of the people who hates the word “fictive” because I don’t like the connotations of the word. I don’t have an issue with the idea that, to outsiders, I am a “fictional” character. Fiction isn’t a dirty word or anything to me, but I don’t like the word fictive, I don’t like the word soulbond. I don’t like…a lot of terminology in the community, actually, and find myself at constant odds with it.
I did not originally think YOUR post on LP (which I knew was an answer to the anon) was condescending or presenting multiplicity as only one way. In my original response to you, I said I didn’t agree with it for myself, which was really just expressing my opinion and I feel it got blown way out of control. I had seen other posts that same day, however, that were along the same lines, and there was an overall tone to those posts of “HEY GUYS WE FIGURED OUT THE ONE TRUE ANSWER” and that made me a bit likely to be hostile, so it’s incredibly possible I overreacted to your original post, which I do apologize for.
What made me actually angry was part of Riku’s response, not yours: the part where he basically accused me of not accepting where I’m from. As stated before, I totally accept it. I’m not comfortable thinking of myself as being from a story, but I don’t have to be. I am not comfortable with it, though, NOT because it is fiction, but because I am incredibly full of secrets and I don’t like that people can just go to wikipedia and be like “HEY GARY NOW I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU.” I find that upsetting, but I imagine a celebrity might have the same reaction, you know? I don’t like my life being recorded; that does not have anything to do with my acceptance of where I came from, or the fact that I am “fictional.”
Riku: It’s fine that you find it powerful being from a story. I don’t think I could find that same power, though it’s possible some of my headmates might? Actually, your involvement here makes me want to ask Sora what his opinion is, but now is not a good time, so I haven’t. /babbling
I have specific memories of coming here from somewhere else. Some of my headmates have similar experiences, some do not. Jay doesn’t, actually, at all. Some people here can leave and come back - which brings me back to why the model Phi presented doesn’t work for me or for us. It just doesn’t hold with our experiences.
I think I’ve encountered so much nonsense in this community (not from you guys) about how fictives in essence are less real because they are from a fictional source, whether it’s “from a story” or “from another world” and it’s nonsense. People in multiple systems are all real; we don’t need to have a tangible reality olympics. I am seriously sorry if I made you feel like I thought of your situation as somehow less real or credible than my own. I definitely don’t! My ONLY reason for posting initially was that Phi’s psychological model doesn’t work for me, and in the continuation when you were probably annoyed and responded, it suddenly sounded like you were saying “my way is right, learn to accept it” and that pushed my buttons.
I’d like to thank both of you for not blowing this way out of proportion and unfollowing or causing drama. It means a lot to me that people can disagree and still be more or less reasonable. Thank you.
Riku - The post I have where I was angry, staring with “wow thanks for taking everything I said wrong” was directed entirely at you, which is why I didn’t specify. (This post is also entirely directed at you.)
You say here:
“The point is, a question like “can consciousnesses travel across universes” is something that you kinda believe in or not, right? I mean, you can be totally cool with other people believing in it even if you don’t, but if you think it isn’t true, not part of the existence, then, well, when you are talking about how consciousnesses get places, you can’t include it as a way, not because you don’t want to let people chose whatever they feel is right, but because the world, as you kinda picture it, doesn’t work that way.”
The world, as I picture it, DOES work that way, because that is my experience. The world, as I picture it, does not work in “my headmates were created by our brain” because that is NOT my experience. So I think we’re saying the same thing, we’re just on opposite ends of what we believe to be true.
Of course DID systems have fictive and their experiences or explanations may vary. I never meant to dis-count or not include them; I was never actually talking about DID systems because I really don’t know much about how that works, not being a DID system.
I think I’m a little annoyed by the tone of this conversation, probably due to a discussion I had with someone else once, but I am a logical person. I am a scientific-minded person. I do not necessarily believe in souls. I have never believed in things like that. I don’t like being treated like I’m somehow not logical or like I don’t appreciate science or whatever because that implication goes against everything that I am and that I’ve done in a way I cannot explain to you here because lol secret identity. I cannot fully explain the phenomenon of how people (like me) came to be here, I can only tell you what my memories are, and that I honestly don’t think I was just poofed into existence by this brain. I wasn’t, no matter how you roll the dice. I actually moved here from another system. I don’t like talking about that in public, because then people get on my case about it, but that is my truth and my reality.
Yes, I know what ontology is. I’m not interested or disinterested in it. The only person I’ve talked to who is really into it basically treated me like my whole system is made up and they only addressed us as multiple because we “like” to be addressed that way. So I’m a little bitter about it.
My most recent reply, which idk if you’ve read yet, was made early this morning/late last night, and I did differentiate between which of you I was talking to, afaik. This thing I’m reblogging right now doesn’t have my second post in it, so I’m assuming this is in response to the first one…
Argh this is kind of what I hate about Tumblr’s interface; it makes it hard to know what part of a discussion I’m trying to have.
Okay, so I pasted both of the things we are going to respond to here, so we can keep it together. The should both link back the the right posts. I completely agree. Sometimes, I miss forums.
Just a heads up - a lot has happened here since this conversation, especially for me (Phi) so I really don’t mean to sound like I don’t think this is important, I just have weird feeling of distance from it now. If that makes any sense?
So, um, I can say a lot about all this, about how when Riku said ontology what he should have said was metaphysics (lol) and about what he told me and stuff, but I’ll let him hash that out. (He wants me to do it, but no, this is his discussion now.) I’ll I’m going to say is that I get you on these terms. There are a lot flying around not just this communitee but Tumblr in general and it seems like you kind of have to be okay with a set? I don’t know. Headmate is weird, system is weird, I use them, they don’t bother anyone, but they are not the ones we would have picked.
So, here’s Riku:
'Kay. Sorry this took a while. Phi got sort of kidnapped by— system drama. anyway. I never meant to imply that you don't accept where you are from, like being fictional is some kind of closet thing that you have to come out and be proud about. I don't remember my words and I'm sorry if you read it that way. I just get that general vibe from the community that there is something not real enough about coming from a story through these ideas, through the brain, like there is a sense that you have to come from some other dimension or something to have the same real status as the not-from-a-story people. And that is what was pissing me off.
Heh - you guys have (a) Sora over there? That might be a fun conversation to have. If he wants, I mean. Man, it’s been years since I’ve talked with Sora in any form outside a kind of simulation. Okay, off topic.
Right. It seems like you get the same kind of feeling, about this idea that people from stories aren’t real. I just see it a step further, that they can be real, but only if they actually come from another universe or something - like they aren’t real unless they had a “real” life elsewhere, that someone like me, who has memories from before, but considers them…not fake, but just… part of what makes me me, but not things that happened anywhere? I get the feeling that that is not real enough for people.
I’m not saying that you need to understand your own memories the way I understand mine. I don’t entirely understand how you understand them the way you do, but I’m not going to try to get back into philosophy because apparently I’m no good at it. (says phi.) I guess that’s my point then. I don’t like the implication that I am less real for just being a product of the brain interacting with fiction, that I’m less real because I see my memories as, in some sense, fake? I’m not saying that is what you implied directly, it was more the vein your comments were in? if that makes sense? I honestly don’t even remember now.
But I also want to be clear that I don’t mean to say that just because you match up with a source that if fictional that you have to view your memories the way we do in this system. Heck, we have someone in this system who doesn’t (Anda - she’s not from anything, but she has memories of being from somewhere and has a whole different…metaphysics? world-view?) We explained fictives to Anda and she said “isn’t it obvious? The act of creating creates a world for them.” She’s…amazing sometimes.
What I meant by all that attempted philosophy is that I don’t think I’ll be entirely able to understand why you think about your memories the way you do. But that’s okay. If you want to actually get into a debate about it where we challenge and test each others world views, you can ask Zexion. He loves that sort of thing. But if you don’t, that’s cool. I don’t need to know why you think the way you do about yourself, right? That’s what respect is about.
Wow, I wrote a lot. I hope that clears everything up.
(Source: allacharade, via valerianhouse-deactivated201308)